University of Oklahoma Athletics
In Their Words: Billy Tubbs
November 09, 2020 | Men's Basketball
To best represent those who experienced the many sides of men's basketball coach Billy Tubbs, a wide-ranging starting five was assembled.
- His son, Tommy, who played and coached alongside his father at Oklahoma.
- Guard Bo Overton, who played for Tubbs' first three teams with the Sooners from 1980-83.
- Center Stacey King, a two-time All-American and national player of the year who nearly transferred after his sophomore season.
- National television analyst and former coach Bill Raftery.
- John Underwood, a former OU associate athletic director who overlooked men's basketball.
What follows are only snippets, because when discussing Billy Tubbs, rarely are there any short answers.
TOMMY TUBBS
Tubbs and his son Tommy
Billy Tubbs loved him some golf. Those who played against him knew the most effective club in his hand often was a pencil.
His son, Tommy, insists his father "understood numbers. He was good with finances. He was a good negotiator." Combining these traits helped explain Billy's alleged handicap while placing bets before teeing off. Much like coaching his basketball teams, Billy liked to run up the score when it came time to proclaim his handicap.
Funny thing is, the older Billy got, the better his game got.
"He was shooting his age, and you know him, that still wasn't good enough," Tommy said. "I think in January or February this year, he shot like a 73 or 74. When he was 84 and he shot like a 79, I would say, 'Hey, you were 5-under (your age) today.' But he hated talking about his age."
An addicted golfer and jogger, the impressively fit-looking Billy passed away at age 85 after battling leukemia. (His birthday was easy to remember: 3-5-35.)
One of the first things Tommy did after Billy died last Sunday morning was check old voicemails he had saved from his father. "I think I have like five messages and two of them are four-minute butt dials," Tommy said with a chuckle. "He'd call me and say, 'Hey, I just shot 78 and took $65 off the boys.' Then he puts the phone in his pocket and you hear him walking to the car. It was hilarious."
No one knew how quickly cancer would claim Billy. But until that time came, it was business as usual.
"A few days before Dad died, one of his golf buddies called me and he said, 'Hey, Tommy. Will you tell Billy I think he owes me 12 bucks, and I'm going to buy beer with it,'" Tommy said. "Dad hated, hated losing at anything. But if he lost in golf, you could hear the money squeak coming out of his hand. He would say, 'All you damn guys want to do is sit around and tell jokes and laugh and drink beer.' But he'd be back the next day trying to get his money back."
Thanks to social media, word of Billy's failing health spread quickly. Imagine the blow-back from Billy's on-court antics had social media existed during his coaching days at Oklahoma (1980-94). "We sat on the couch many times watching games and Dad told me, 'You know, with social media today, it's probably a good thing I'm not coaching,'" Tommy said.
"Billy Ball" nostalgia quickly kicked into overdrive with news of his failing health. His name even spread to the Weather Channel. Last week's ice storm, the worst in Oklahoma history, wound up being dubbed "Winter Storm Billy," which begged Tommy to ask, "I didn't even know they named ice storms."
"It was tough love. He had a way of cutting through the bull and getting to the important stuff in a different way."
Tommy Tubbs
Tommy was driving home after a private family service for his father on Wednesday in Norman when "one of our former players texted me and said, 'Do not forget to celebrate your dad.' And my whole view just changed. I went from kind of being selfish and wanting him here to doing all this (sharing memories). Wow. He's in a better place."
Billy and Pat Tubbs were married 62 years. At a Bible study just six days before Billy's passing, the preacher asked how long he's been married and Billy answered correctly. "The preacher looked at my mom and said, 'How did you do it?' Mom smiled and said, 'Well, every time Billy told me to do something, I just said, "OK, Billy." And then I just did what I wanted to,'" Tommy explained.
In February, Billy and Pat were joined by Tommy, his wife, Ann, and another couple at Desert Mountain in Scottsdale. "I'm glad we got to do that because, man, we cooked out, we played about four rounds of golf, and he was shooting his age or under every time," Tommy said. "I got some video of him on a par 3, almost making a hole-in-one. How cool would that have been on tape?"
The Tubbs family tried to keep news of Billy being admitted into hospice care as quiet as possible, while still informing selected members of the OU athletic department. However, news broke in the Fort Worth Star-Telegram one day later.
"The story comes out, our phones are blowing up and then we all realized it didn't matter that people knew," Tommy said. "What we all needed were prayers. We needed support, but I had no idea (his passing) was going to happen that quick. My dad was my best friend. He was the guy I could call and go to."
Billy was first diagnosed with leukemia in 2015 and used the same oncologist who treated OU three-time All-American Wayman Tisdale, who passed away at age 44 on May 15, 2009.
Those who knew Billy best agreed on this: You knew exactly where you stood with him – whether you were a player, a coach, a friend, a reporter, or his son.
"He treated me just like he treated everybody else. He just told me flat-out how it was," Tommy said. "You know what it was? It was tough love. That's what my dad gave (daughter) Taylor and me and it's why he cared. He had a way of cutting through the bull(----) and getting to the important stuff in a different way. He sized it up and gave you the answer quick. As I get older and look back on things, it's amazing to me. There have been phone calls from players who would comment to my dad, 'I didn't understand why you did things this way or that way, and you were hard on me, or you did this or that. But I understand today and I appreciate it.' There are messages from guys who transferred who are still going, 'You changed my life for the better, and thank you.' I would have never guessed that.
"I've had Kansas fans call and say, 'You know, we used to not like your dad and you know why? He was a threat. Y'all were winning some games. As time went on, there was just more and more respect for Dad and Mom. Dad couldn't have done it without Mom, and she couldn't have done it without him."
Tommy said his father "just knew how to have fun. He knew how to win." It's no coincidence these two almost always go hand-in-hand.
"He was brash and cocky as a coach because he didn't have time to sit around and go, 'We can't do this, because you were gonna do it,'" Tommy said. "That's the attitude he had. I think one of the gifts my dad had was he had a way of transferring that energy, that thought process and that confidence to players, where they could be themselves and be confident and play without fear."
Billy once told Tommy the best coaching advice he ever got came from former Tyler Junior College coach Floyd Wagstaff, who said, "Billy, don't count on your coaching ability. Get the best players."
And because his father always cut right to the chase, Tommy jokingly said, "I'm guessing my father is already forming his next team (in heaven), and I'm pretty sure I'm not on it... I'm sure not going to start."
BO OVERTON
When Billy Tubbs was hired at Oklahoma in 1980, he made an immediate impression on guard Glenn "Bo" Overton.
But Tubbs initially left his mark on the running track, not the basketball court.
"First day, Billy made us run a mile," Overton recalled. "We'd run a mile and then Billy would say, 'OK, we're warmed up. Now let's do some real running.' I could run all day, but I sure didn't want to. I remember him saying something to me because I'd bitch about stuff every now and then. We'd go out there and have a big workout on the track and then he'd want us to come play pickup and I'd say stuff like, 'Well, dang. If I wanted to be on the track team, I'd just go over there with them.' Then Billy called me over to the side and said, 'You know, I know you can handle this, but I've got to find out who else can. I've got to see who's the toughest here.' That was kind of Billy. He would just see how your mood was and he would fix it and explain to you what was going on. There was a method to it."
Overton was a stud from Ada High School who was named 1979 Oklahoma Player of the Year as a senior. His first season with the Sooners was the last season for coach Dave Bliss. Aaron Curry and Raymond Whitley already occupied the backcourt, so Overton had to wait his turn as a freshman on a 15-12 team.
Tubbs arrived and immediately began speaking brashly about soon winning Big Eight Conference titles, going to the Final Four and bringing home a national championship. Most everyone thought it was some sort of joke, given that Tubbs was hired on April Fools' Day.
Tubbs' debut season didn't go particularly well as the Sooners finished 9-18 overall and 4-10 (seventh place) in league play. Not much went right. Whitley tore his Achilles. Players transferred.
"We looked up and suddenly there wasn't any players there," Overton said. "We just had some bad breaks that first year."
However, Overton saw hope because he believed in Tubbs. Bo knows Billy.
"I believed in what he was doing because of everything he was kind of putting into place," the 6-foot-3 Overton said. "Because really and truly, I wasn't a point guard. In high school, I kind of played everywhere. (Fellow guard) Chuck Barnett was my age, and we always knew Chuck was really good. He just didn't get to play for Bliss as a freshman. He couldn't dribble that well. He'd turn the ball over. But in practice, he'd kick people's (butt). We knew what we had there. We were going to be pretty good. We had some good young guys and we could kind of see Billy's vision and how he wanted to play. And then I figured out real quick that if I was going to get to play, I had better get a ball in my hands and show him I could run the show and that's what ended up happening."
Tubbs never had another losing season at OU. The Sooners went 22-11 and 8-6 (third place) his second season, primarily behind the 1-2 combination of Barnett (18.9 points, 3.8 rebounds, 3.2 assists) and David Little (18.5, 5.0, 2.8). Overton, who led the team in assists his final three seasons, averaged 7.2 points and 4.5 assists.
"We had to be a smart team. As wild as it looked like we were playing, there was a method to it. We all had jobs... There was a system to it."
Bo Overton
Tubbs didn't recruit Overton, he inherited him. But Overton did what he could to make the transition.
"If you look at the OU teams that came after us, I wasn't his prototype player for that spot, right?" Overton said with a chuckle. "When you look at Ricky Grace and Mookie Blaylock, those are the guys he really wanted, and I was just kind of a bridge to get him to that point."
The Sooners went 24-9 and 10-4 (second place) in Tubbs' third season and the future looked extremely bright thanks to the arrival of Wayman Tisdale, who earned All-American honors as a freshman (24.5, 10.3, 2.5).
As a senior, Overton averaged 8.3 points and 7.1 assists. His primary role was to feed Wayman. "That's right, and I made sure of that," Overton said. "That kept me on the floor."
Knowing his potential career path, Overton studied Tubbs differently than most players. While everyone was busy laughing at Tubbs' one-liners – it was difficult not to – Overton took note of how good his coach was.
"I don't think there's any doubt about that," Overton said. "I think we had to be a smart team. As wild as it looked like we were playing, there was a method to it. We all had jobs. You had to run this lane. You had to run that lane. There was a system to it. Defensively, kind of the same situation. He liked to kind of do different, interesting things to keep people off balance. He was just a really good coach. Really good."
Overton was picked in the ninth round (224th overall) of the NBA Draft by the Phoenix Suns, who coincidentally were under the direction of former OU coach John MacLeod.
Overton played one season in the CBA, then became a coaching vagabond with stints as an assistant in the CBA and Oral Roberts (twice), head coach at Murray State Community College in Tishomingo, assistant at Southwest Texas State and Louisiana Tech, served as an assistant for OU women's coach Sherri Coale (1998-2004), men's coach at UMKC, head coach of the WNBA Chicago Sky, coached in the Bahamas, China and Russia, became head women's coach at Oklahoma City University and is about to start his first season at Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee.
During this coaching carousel, Overton reached out to Tubbs.
"I think that was one of the luckiest things for me," Overton said of his post-playing relationship with Tubbs. "When I was trying to be a coach and everything, there was two or three times he could have hired me. And he turned me down. I'm trying to get jobs and you'd think my coach would give me a job. He'd bring me in and interview me, but the timing wasn't right."
Many miles later, golf entered.
"When Billy came back to Norman is when we were playing golf at OU (Jimmie Austin) all the time," Overton said. "In the last five years, it got to be two or three times a week I'm playing with him. After we're done, we're sitting around in the burger spot and I was around him a lot. I was really lucky to be able to do that.
"We'd be talking about this or that, but every five minutes, he always went back to talking about his kids and grandkids. 'I gotta get ready to go see a football game tomorrow. And then I'm going to the recital on Saturday.' You would think he be talking about basketball and things, but he would always go back to those grandbabies and how proud he was. I was one of the lucky ones who got to hang out with him here in the last part of his life."
So, is it true what Tommy claims? Was Tubbs actually shooting his age?
"He sure was," Overton confirmed. "He was playing his (butt) off."
STACEY KING
Tubbs & King at King's jersey retirement in 2008.
The Oklahoma men's basketball team was flying back home from Seattle in late March of 1987 and sophomore center Stacey King was "pissed." He was so angry he had just decided to transfer, probably to Kansas, to exact revenge on Sooners coach Billy Tubbs.
King thought he should be starting for the 1986-87 team rather than backing up senior David Johnson. The previous week, in a 96-93 NCAA second-round upset over No. 3-seeded Pittsburgh in Tucson, Ariz., King shined with 19 points, eight rebounds and two steals in 23 minutes.
"I had one of the best games I've had in a long time, and on a national stage," King explained. "It was kind of my coming out party. I'm thinking my role was going to expand. Here I am. I'm expecting big minutes the rest of the way."
The reason OU was flying home rather than playing in the West Regional Final at the Kingdome was due to a 93-91 overtime loss to Iowa in the Sweet 16, during which King managed just two points and two rebounds in 13 minutes.
King asked academic advisor Rick Pryor to get the necessary transfer paperwork in order. After Pryor unsuccessfully tried to convince King to stay at OU, he informed Tubbs of King's decision.
"Coach Tubbs comes and sits next to me, takes my headphones off my ears and asks me what I'm listening to," King recalled. "I said, 'I'm listening to rap.' And just like typical Billy Tubbs he says, 'Oh, that's trash. You should be listening to country music, something better.' And I'm thinking, 'Oh my God, I'm not in the mood for this crap.'"
A very private conversation ensued:
Tubbs: "Hey, listen, I know you're upset. Rick told me you're thinking about transferring, but I think that's a bad idea. You've got to understand Stacey, you've got to have some patience. Your time is coming. Next year, you're going to be the guy. You're going to be the man. You're going to be the guy that's the starter. You just have to be patient. The opportunity will be there for you if you want it."
King: "Man, that's the same thing you said when you recruited me. Do I really want to believe you now?"
Tubbs: "I just want you to reconsider, take a few days before you make a decision. Go home and talk to your parents."
Tubbs' voice then went into full drawl: "Stacey King, your future is bright. Just make sure you're wearing your damn sunglasses."
"And he gets up and walks away. He left on that term," King said. "I was perplexed. I had a dumbfounded look like, is he being sarcastic? Is he being a jerk? I mean, how do you know how to take it?"
"He saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. He was a straight shooter."
Stacey King
King decided to stick with the Sooners and, as Tubbs predicted, his future was bright.
King averaged 22.3 points, 8.5 rebounds and 2.6 blocks his junior season when OU finished as national runner-up. As a senior, King averaged 26.0 points, 10.1 rebounds and 2.3 blocks and was named national Player of the Year by The Sporting News. He was the No. 6 overall pick in the 1989 NBA Draft by Chicago, made the all-rookie team and won three world championships with the Bulls.
The night before National Signing Day, King actually wasn't headed to Norman coming out of Lawton High School because Tubbs didn't exactly woo King's parents during the recruiting process.
"My mom hated him, hated him. My parents hated him on his visit to my house," King said. "When he left, my mom said, 'You are not going to Oklahoma – ever. I will not let you sign with Oklahoma.' Mom just didn't like his attitude, thought he was cocky. She thought he was disrespectful. He basically told me, 'Hey, if you come to Oklahoma, we're going to score a lot of points, kick a lot of people's (butt) and we'll take names. I was like, 'Yeah, this is my kind of place.' But my parents, they were not in Billy Tubbs' camp."
Given how strongly his parents felt, King instead chose to sign with Maryland, and he wasn't going alone.
"This is how young kids think," King explained. "I had a girlfriend and we had a package deal. Wherever I went, she was going to go. So the night before National Signing Day, she's crying and saying, 'I can't go to Maryland. It's too far away from my parents.' Yada, yada. I said, 'Well, where do you want to go?' She said, "I want to go to the University of Oklahoma.' I'm like, 'Ah, man. This is just not going to work. My mom and dad don't want me to go there.' So young love, Romeo and Juliet type situation, I go to Oklahoma."
Love lured King to OU, and his love for Tubbs kept him there.
"As I got older, I started realizing what he had said on the plane that day and what it really meant," King said. "It took me a few years to understand that. He saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. He was a straight shooter."
King credits Tubbs for helping Oklahoma City lure an NBA franchise.
"There hasn't been a team like ours since then that's been able to put up the numbers that we put up," King said of the 1983-90 era under Tubbs. "We were an NBA-style team. (Former OKC mayor) Mick Cornett did a great job of soliciting Oklahoma City to bring a pro team in. (OKC Thunder majority owner) Clay Bennett wanted to bring a pro team to Oklahoma, but all that would not be happening if Billy Tubbs' team were not as exciting as they were. People would drive in snowstorms, ice storms, whatever, to come see us play. It was because of Billy Tubbs.
"(Tubbs' death) hurts because he was tough as nails, man. I mean, Clint Eastwood tough. You thought he'd be here longer than all of us. He's a champ. He'll always be a champion in my eyes."
BILL RAFTERY
On Feb. 9, 1989, Billy Tubbs grabbed the microphone with his right hand and blurted out, "The referees request, that regardless of how terrible the officiating is, do not throw stuff on the floor."
A sellout crowd inside Lloyd Noble Center instantaneously became hysterical. So did ESPN analyst Bill Raftery, who was working the game.
"THAT'S UNBELIEVEABLE!" Raftery screamed in that moment. "He (Tubbs) never passes up an opportunity. Did you hear what he said?"
Tubbs was slapped with a technical foul and Missouri made both free throws to increase its shocking lead to 23-8.
Thanks in large part to Tubbs' mic check, momentum immediately flipped. The Sooners promptly went on a 28-9 run to take a 36-32 lead. The score was tied at 53 at halftime and OU went on to post a 112-105 victory.
To this day, it remains one of the most memorable sequences in college basketball history.
Asked to describe his on-air call, Raftery chuckled and admitted, "I was hysterical. Anybody who ever coached could relate (to what Tubbs did) and would love to say something like that."
Raftery paused and said, "That night with Billy at the microphone, I mean, I wish I had a tape of it."
Evidently, Raftery is not familiar with the wonders of YouTube, where the incident has gotten more than 150,000 views to date. "You know, I'm not very good at all that internet stuff," the 77-year-old Raftery admitted.
There's no telling how many YouTube views have transpired since Tubbs passed away last Sunday morning.
"It was one of those things where I was really sad," Raftery said of learning Tubbs' death. "And then I started smiling, because of the fun I had with him. I was basically just starting to get to know a lot of people nationally (as a TV analyst) back then."
Raftery played at La Salle (1960-63) and immediately began serving as a collegiate head coach for 16 seasons at Farleigh Dickinson (1963-68) and Seton Hall (1970-81), after which he joined ESPN as an analyst.
Raftery was close friends with longtime collegiate coach and fellow New Jersey native Jim Kerwin, who served as a Tubbs assistant at from 1984-90.
"Jimmy and I were great pals and we went to camps together," Raftery said. "We signed a 'non-aggression pact' against one another. That's why I got to know Billy quicker than most other coaches. He was great company, too, with that little twang he had."
Some of their best talks transpired at Opie's on Lindsey Street, a club Tubbs frequented after home games which shut down in June 2018.
"We used to go there together and it was just fun," Raftery said. "I remember back then there was a big thing about him running up the score. Billy said, 'I'm not trying to tell these guys how to do their jobs, but they should go get better players.' Billy forced you to score and he made it fun for his players. They enjoyed the style and yet what got lost is how well they guarded, too. Because when you score, you're going to give up points. But, boy, they could shut you down (defensively). I remember Mookie (Blaylock) getting all over people. They were tenacious. They were like Billy. They just got after you and kept after you."
Raftery recalled the 1988 Final Four in Kansas City, Mo., where Kansas beat the Sooners 83-79 in the national championship game. Raftery remembered sitting at mid-court in Kemper Arena during practice, chatting with Tubbs' son, Tommy.
Being from Jersey, Raftery appreciated Tubbs' candor.
"It was just a wonderful time for me, the enjoyment there could be being around a guy like him," Raftery said. "He was so open, so frank about the opponent. He and (Missouri coach) Norm Stewart, they were no bull---- guys. Whether they offended you or not, they didn't really give a damn."
Raftery said Tubbs never got the full respect he deserved as a coach.
"That's what happens in the crazy profession that those guys were in," Raftery said. "Billy wasn't going to charm some writer to get a good story out. He was not looking to get a feature story about him in one of the preseason magazines or the Basketball Times. He was just, 'Hey, I'm here to coach the team and we're going to kick your (butt)' and that's the way he went about it. He really didn't care what you thought. It was refreshing because most coaches are careful to say the right thing, do the right thing. Not that he did anything bad, but it was refreshing."
JOHN UNDERWOOD
When associate athletic director John Underwood arrived at OU in 1987, he essentially had an all-access pass to essentially serve as Tubbs' safety net.
Underwood's first men's basketball game in charge of game management at Lloyd Noble Center was when the Sooners hosted Texas A&M, which happened to be Underwood's alma mater.
Turns out Tubbs got hit with a technical while walking up the south tunnel at halftime. "(Head official) Jim Bain walks over to me and says, 'Johnny, I just want to let you know, we're going to start the second half with a technical foul,'" Underwood said.
Underwood: "What for?"
Bain: 'Well, your coach has said some unkind words."
Underwood: "Did anybody hear them?"
Bain: "Hey, don't go there with me."
In the second half, Underwood could sense Tubbs was on the verge of getting tossed from the game with a third technical foul and made his way up the tunnel just in case. Sure enough, with less than three minutes to play, Tubbs was ejected.
"Billy's walking up the tunnel and says, 'Can you believe these -------------- have kicked me out of my own gym?'" Underwood recalled.
Keep in mind, OU won the game by 24 (104-80).
Fast forward to the end of the 1990-91 season. The Sooners were facing Stanford in the NIT championship game in New York City.
Tubbs got tossed in the first half by quick-triggered official Pete Pavia.
"I needed to go in the locker room in the first half," Underwood said. "Billy's sitting on a chair in there and he says, "Do you believe they kicked me out of the national finals on ESPN?"
In Madison Square Garden, no less.
"I said, 'Billy, I've been with you about 160 games and I've felt like you probably should have gotten run (ejected) in several of those. But I'm telling you, you got a bad deal tonight," Underwood said. "Billy said, 'Really? You think you can get us some beer?'"
Sure enough, the general manager of Madison Square Garden fetched Tubbs a six-pack of beer.
"He had one, I had one and I was just trying to console him," Underwood said. "The officials' dressing room was just down the hallway and Billy says, 'Well, I'm going out at halftime and you can't stop me.' I said, 'Coach, I can. I'm bigger and I'm younger and you're just not going to do it. You're not going to take a chance on something else happening.' Billy said, 'Yeah, you're right.'"
Using a cell phone that was about the size of a brick, Tubbs repeatedly tried to contact assistant coaches Mike Anderson and Tommy Tubbs on the bench. OU wound up losing 78-72.
"I think we maybe had another beverage in the second half," Underwood admitted. "But at the end of the game, Billy said, 'Johnny, I'm going out there.' I said, 'Billy, no.' He said, 'You know, you're right' and patted me on the back. I kind of relaxed and turned my back and the next thing I know, Billy's out in the hallway in a defensive stance and here comes Pete Pavia and Billy's just wearing him out."
"Billy, needless to say, was one of a kind. Sometimes he'd agree with you and sometimes he didn't. But he never held a grudge."
John Underwood
Underwood joined the Sooners staff the same year OU become the first Division I school to play for the national title in football and basketball in the same academic year (1987-88).
The Sooners were in the Chaminade Classic in Hawaii at Christmas time that year. Underwood was friends with Virginia assistant coach Dave Odom and the Cavaliers faced Tubbs in the first round.
"He was asking about Billy's team," Underwood said of Odom. "I said, 'David, they're really good.' And he said, 'You know, we've got good guards.'"
OU blistered Virginia, 109-61.
"I don't think they got the ball past half court for about a 5- or 10-minute stretch," Underwood said, chuckling. "I didn't have the heart to call Dave. Two weeks after the conference season ended he called and said, 'Well, I know you were thinking about my comment that we had good guards, but our forwards ended up bringing the ball down.'"
From 1976-80, Underwood was an assistant on the OU basketball staff when the Sooners won their first Big Eight championship in 1979. Underwood left Norman days before Tubbs arrived. After leaving OU, Underwood joined the Big 12 Conference staff.
As a former player and coach, Underwood had an appreciation for Tubbs' coaching.
"I've never seen a team practice as hard as his teams practiced because each one of those players knew if they were going to get minutes, they better bust their rear end in practice," Underwood said. "There were a lot of times the second team beat the first team in scrimmages. They were the best-conditioned team I've seen."
As Tubbs was prone to do with those he worked closely with, he often took playful jabs at Underwood.
"Billy, needless to say, was one of a kind," Underwood said. "Sometimes he'd agree with you and sometimes he didn't. But he never held a grudge. He went on to the next thing. But with the least little thing, if you said 'no,' the line was drawn in the sand."
